SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
FX's "The Bear" is back for its fifth and final season. The bingeable show has followed Carmen Berzatto, a chef who has returned to Chicago to run his dead brother Michael's failing sandwich shop, The Beef, and ultimately turn it into a fine-dining establishment called The Bear. At first, he faces a skeptical crew, headed by Richie Jerimovich, Michael's best friend.
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EBON MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) I can handle this myself, cousin. I got this.
DETROW: Through the course of the show, Richie has been a brash, stubborn presence in The Bear's kitchen.
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MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) So we are going to stick with what works, and we are going to [expletive] make sure we got enough food to feed these [expletive] dorks.
DETROW: He's played by Ebon Moss-Bachrach. And when I spoke to the actor, I started by being honest. Though Richie has now become my favorite character over four seasons, I hated him at first. So I asked Moss-Bachrach what he thought of Richie's journey over the course of the last few seasons.
MOSS-BACHRACH: I mean, when I read the first couple of scripts, I didn't find him particularly unlikable. I found him as a man that was - lacked impulse control and was, I don't know, a bit histrionic and loud.
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UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) 'Cause I don't like this at all.
MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) Syd, it's fine. Chef Carmen uses power phrases 'cause he's a baby replicant who's not self actualized, which is maybe why he repeatedly referred to me as a loser.
JEREMY ALLEN WHITE: (As Carmen) Richie, I apologize.
MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) No, no, no, it's all good. I don't need your apology.
He was someone who was in the throes of grief, mourning his best friend, his sun, you know, Mike Berzatto - sun - I'm - S-U-N, not S-O-N. And I didn't think that he was going to rub people the wrong way as much as he seemed to have. But I was happy that people have really found this heart because it's - he's a man with a very unprotected heart. I think he's got a really strong code. He's a very loyal man. He's a wonderful father. He's just struggling, as we all do.
DETROW: Yeah. He hasn't fully fixed, but he works on so many of those flaws, and he gets so much more vulnerable and open as the show goes.
MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah, I agree. In that second season, when he goes to that fine-dining establishment and sort of becomes inspired by that work...
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MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) But I couldn't live with myself if I let this beautiful family leave Chicago without sampling one of my personal favorite dishes, Pequod's deep dish.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Oh, no, you did not her me say that.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) God, you all are wonderful.
MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) No, stop it. You're wonderful.
And that victory and that sort of opening of the window has been really inspirational to so, so many people. I mean, I don't want to be cheesy, but I just - I mean, every single day since that episode has come out, I talk to so many people. I'm really kind of in awe of the reach of this thing and the reach of this character that I play that - his journey.
DETROW: A lot of us last saw Richie in a pretty interesting place, that standalone episode that - you cowrote that episode.
MOSS-BACHRACH: I did. Yeah, Jon Bernthal and I wrote that episode.
DETROW: Yeah. This popped up in between seasons. It's a flashback. We see Richie and Mikey on a run to Gary, Indiana, that takes place before the show begins. And a lot happens, and nothing happens at the same time, right? Like, they talk with each other. It's warm. It's suddenly very not warm. There's a lot going on. And, of course, we have spent several seasons now really staring in the face Richie and Carmy's friendship or standoff.
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WHITE: (As Carmen) I never thought of it before, just how sorry I am. How sorry I am because I just - I didn't realize how...
MOSS-BACHRACH: (As Richie) How what? How...
WHITE: (As Carmen) I didn't realize how you lost somebody, too.
DETROW: How do you think about where these two guys are seeing each other? They're both sharing this grief that's personal to them in their own different ways, and they're having to work through it together.
MOSS-BACHRACH: I think there's a lot of resentment there. Neither of them was able to save their brother, their cousin, Mikey, you know? And I think it's the easiest thing to do, a lot of times in those situations, is just point the finger at somebody else. Richie's incredibly frustrated, incredibly angry and resentful with Carmen for not being there, for taking off and not checking in. As - but, you know, Richie learns that that actually wasn't really the case. And I think - I mean, it's hard for me to speak for Carmy. I think he seems quite resentful of the intimacy and the relationship that Richie and Mikey were able to share that Carmy could never achieve.
DETROW: Yeah. What can you tell us about where we're going to find Richie at the beginning of Season 5? Because at the end of Season 4, of course, Carmy leaves The Bear to him and Sydney. And I'll say it this way, at the end of that one-off episode, we are left with deep concern of what's going on with Richie. I'll just leave it there. What can you tell us about where Cousin Richie is at the beginning of the season?
MOSS-BACHRACH: You know, at the end of that fourth season, it seems like he gets what he's always wanted in a way. He becomes a partner. He says, listen, I don't want to be the mayor of St. Patrick's Day parade or something like that, you know? He doesn't want anything symbolic. He wants to be - have a meaningful, real partnership with Sydney. But I think one thing that "The Bear" does really well is that change is not always linear. And, you know, it's lateral. It goes backwards. One step forward, two steps back. And then there's also the classic thing of, like, you know, watch what you wish for, you know, and then you get it, and it ain't what you thought it was.
DETROW: You talked about how things aren't linear. A lot can happen at once. Nothing can happen at once. I feel like when I watch the show, the pace of things can frustrate me, and the way that things can be left unresolved for episodes and episodes or seasons at a time can frustrate me. And then I realized, like, well, that that's real life. What have you learned about just the complicated ways that "The Bear" puts plots together as an actor?
MOSS-BACHRACH: I can find it frustrating a little bit of times when I watch this show. I'm like, oh, come on. Let's just - let's get to the next thing already.
DETROW: Fix your problems.
MOSS-BACHRACH: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Stop talking. Just do it. But I think it is - like you say, it is a reflection of life and the messiness and the - you know, storytelling on TV and in movies can be very convenient and fit nicely into acts. And that is - can be very satisfying to a viewer who's trying to make sense out of a chaotic world. But at the same time, that can be deceptive and not really emblematic of what all of our messy lives are like.
DETROW: Yeah. What are you going to miss the most about it?
MOSS-BACHRACH: I'm going to miss the people that I work with. I'm going to miss Chicago, which has been such an endlessly kind and generous place to make this show. I'm going to miss playing this guy. I'm going to miss Richie. I feel like I'm more civilized. And I mean that in the - not necessarily in a good way. I'm just - I don't yell at people all the time (laughter). You know, I'm not as fully expressed. You know, I was raised in New England. I've got to - I self-censor myself, and it's been really freeing and fun to play somebody that just kind of lets it rip on our, you know...
DETROW: I can see that.
MOSS-BACHRACH: It's a pleasure to play that.
DETROW: From your point of view, do you think fans of the show are going to be satisfied with the ending?
MOSS-BACHRACH: I'm really proud of the season. I'm proud of the ending. I think it ends on its own terms. It feels right to me. It feels true to The Bear. It feels true to The Beef. I think endings are really, really hard. And I hope - fingers crossed, I believe that this ending is a pretty special one.
DETROW: The good news is nobody ever has the problem with an ending of a beloved TV show.
MOSS-BACHRACH: Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, exactly. No one ever has anything (laughter)...
DETROW: It's a very chill process.
MOSS-BACHRACH: But I - it wasn't a dream. You know, the whole thing was not a dream.
DETROW: That's Ebon Moss-Bachrach, who plays Richie on FX's "The Bear." Final season is out now. Thank you so much.
MOSS-BACHRACH: Thank you so much. Pleasure talking to you.
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